Unknown is also an answer. Interview with Nanfan: About the phenomenon of human beings themselves. In literature and art, Nanfan

ChatGPT is not only a technological phenomenon, but also a cultural phenomenon. Some have already begun a gamified literary attempt at ChatGPT, while others have bluntly stated that ChatGPT has narrowed the gap in people's writing abilities. In the view of literary critic Nan Fan, what is truly first-class literary writing is not a problem that artificial intelligence needs to face. How to define first-class literature is the real problem that humanity needs to face.

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Liberation Weekend: Not long ago, you went to Shanghai and returned to your alma mater East China Normal University to share a lecture with students titled "Literature," "Algorithms," and Virtual Space. ". These students in the audience, all born in the 2000s according to their age, are truly "digital natives". Faced with the impact of ChatGPT, how do they interact with you?

Nan Fan: They didn't raise too many questions. Personally, I believe that artificial intelligence will develop rapidly, and this trend is beyond doubt.

I told the young people that the shock brought by the Alpha Dog is still fresh in my memory, and the shock waves of the Metaverse followed one after another. Now, ChatGPT - an artificial intelligence language model - is knocking on the door again. Behind ChatGPT, there is an extremely large corpus database that contains almost all human knowledge, texts, and language products. This requires us to evaluate the intellectual ability of literature and the broader humanities to adapt to this changing rhythm.

Nowadays, people can chat with ChatGPT, which can chat with us about knowledge and gossip from all over the world. It can even help us draft articles, deliver speeches, write poetry, and continue writing novel endings. I quoted a poem that ChatGPT said to have written for Hangzhou during my lecture that day: "Boats moor at night in Hangzhou, amidst the fireworks and stars, standing at the end of the winding bridge, gazing at the southern mountains and towers, March rain in the river city, willow fluff dancing in the green breeze, self pity in the empty garden, deeper sorrow of separation, distant mountains and valleys in the water village, towering smoke trees and towers, endless autumn wind blowing, the sound of returning birds breaking off, and in the bright moon tonight, the old friend has not returned." Compared to the common level of classical poetry among modern people, it should be said that the writing is still decent.

I have a colleague who asked ChatGPT to draft a speech for the opening ceremony of an academic conference. After receiving the first draft, he felt that it was too short, and ChatGPT immediately added hundreds of words; He requested an increase in theoretical depth, and ChatGPT quickly added a bunch of related conceptual terms. Of course, ChatGPT's ability is not limited to narrow language expression, but can engage in many extended tasks. For example, a friend used a certain year's college entrance examination paper to test ChatGPT, and it is said that the score on the test paper reached the "second tier" score line.

Liberation Weekend: Some students now use ChatGPT to do homework.

Nanfan: Now some teachers are worried that students will use ChatGPT to do homework or write papers. However, when I saw an interesting view of Zizek, I was greatly relieved - he said that if students use ChatGPT to write papers, I will use ChatGPT to score - who are we afraid of. I think this has opened up a new perspective for us to face artificial intelligence: launching ChatGPT to deal with ChatGPT.

I once read an introduction about ChatGPT online. In addition to the description of its functions, construction, and working methods, the introduction also ensures that ChatGPT is safe and reliable, has a gentle temperament, and will never violate discipline, disclose commercial secrets or personal privacy, and so on. However, the last point of the introduction is somewhat "terrifying" - the author of the introduction may be ChatGPT itself. In this context, the relationship between ChatGPT and literature is only a minor issue.

Liberation Weekend: Do you think writing will be replaced sooner or later?

Nan Fan: I think the real problem is not what it can do, but whether we know what we want. Artificial intelligence can definitely engage in literary writing, and currently it is capable of describing characters, scenery, scenes, etc. However, whether it can engage in first-class literary writing is something I doubt.

There is a threshold between literature and first-class and good literature. From being an outsider in literature to starting publishing works, it means crossing a threshold; From publishing works to writing first-class literature, it means crossing another threshold. For example, a person can master table tennis skills quite maturely after 500 hours of training; However, even with 10 times the effort -5000 hours of training - there is no guarantee of being among the top table tennis players. This principle is common in all walks of life. This second threshold is difficult to cross.

As for what truly first-class literary writing is, this is not a problem that artificial intelligence needs to face. How to define first-class literature is the real problem that humanity needs to face.

Stills from the movie "Artificial Intelligence"

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Liberation Weekend: But sometimes humans don't know what they don't know, do they?

Nan Fan: Yes, the problem is that sometimes humans themselves don't know what they want because our needs are constantly changing.

That day, I shared two questions with my students. Artificial intelligence has a very powerful memory function, but it does not recall. Humans will remember: the bowl of rice your mother cooked for you, the first time your father took you to the airport, the first time you were tempted, the first time you were in love, and so on. Artificial intelligence does not have these. In terms of algorithms, we humans may no longer be able to reach artificial intelligence, but artificial intelligence itself does not have a mechanism for recall. It can only imitate human memories. The difficulty encountered in this kind of imitation is that it is not possible to completely replicate personal experience because there is no such experience. This means that artificial intelligence can never completely replace you because it does not know the unique personal experience of another person, which is very important in literature. Personal experience may not necessarily be something earth shattering, but so far, top-notch literature often contains unique memories of individuals in history, inspiring resonance in the community.

Liberation Weekend: Memories are also a form of re creation and re elaboration.

Nan Fan: Yes. In addition to memories, humans always have new experiences and narratives, just like when I take a sip of coffee now, I immediately have new experiences and feelings. However, algorithms can only show me countless knowledge about coffee cultivation and brewing, as well as previous descriptions of drinking coffee. Artificial intelligence can only use a massive amount of old things to arrange and combine, even if it is a "creative" arrangement and combination. Strictly speaking, it only has the past tense, without the next second, which is when humans lead it. Even if the experience of the next second is largely influenced and even constrained by old knowledge, there still exists new content. Otherwise, history will be like a stagnant water that no longer advances.

Liberation Weekend: Like Archimedes, he can never catch up with the turtle.

Nanfan: No matter how we evaluate our next second, artificial intelligence cannot fully predict it in advance. Even we cannot fully predict it ourselves. If we can clearly state what we need and what goals we want to achieve, artificial intelligence can overcome you. However, sometimes people just don't know what they really want, and this ignorance is also included in the value of literature.

Screenshots from the movie "Machine Butler"

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Liberation Weekend: With the advancement of technology, robots and biomimetic humans will become more and more like humans, making it increasingly difficult to distinguish between real and fake. In literary works, especially science fiction, this theme has been extensively explored, such as humans falling in love with robots, or robots being able to think independently and devour humans. This topic is actually about how to define people. What do you think is the key to distinguishing between humans and robots?

Nan Fan: I have read a science fiction novel, which suggests that the future world already has high-tech detection methods, and any plagiarism or plagiarism of previous works will be detected within a minute. It is even more difficult for writers to bypass countless existing works and write good works. A male writer was transformed by a female scientist, greatly improving his intelligence and emotional intelligence, and writing unparalleled new works. The two also developed a love story. But according to the law, if the rate of physical modification exceeds 49%, it will lose its human qualification. While this writer achieved great success, he found that his transformation rate far exceeded the standard, and he lost his qualification as a human being. At the same time, his reputation as a non artificial intelligence writer was also ruined.

49% of the overall regulations are very simple. However, in the course of history, this matter has become much more complex. Human beings can now accept mechanical prosthetics, and completely blind individuals can see light again by directly transmitting images captured by cameras into their brains. In the future, medical technology will become increasingly advanced, and humans can replace their aging and damaged parts with machine parts. If we replace a joint today and a viscera tomorrow, at which critical point will this person no longer be a human, but a robot? This reminds people of the ancient Greek story of the ship of Theseus. Today, I will change a new hull, and tomorrow I will change another hull. Over the years, each hull of the entire ship may have been changed at different times. Is it still the same ship as before?

Liberation Weekend: What is the last thing we can't be replaced by artificial intelligence?

Nanfan: I think it originates from everything produced by biological tissues in the human body.

Liberation Weekend: The Pain and Joy Brought by Neurons?

Nanfan: Including this, including emotions. Many human systems and cultures are inseparable from the biological tissues of the body. For example, eating. How many systems and cultural norms revolve around food? However, Cyber's body does not need to eat. Human beings attach great importance to the various resources necessary for survival, but Cyberspace does not have the need to reproduce and occupy land and water sources. If we no longer have the various biological tissues of human bodies, Cyber or robots will form another space for development, which is very different from the future of humanity we imagine. In the imagination of various existing technological development paths, the biological tissues of the human body are still considered as the default premise. This imagination is projected into a large amount of science fiction literature. A large number of science fiction movies and literature are not very optimistic about future development. What is the source of this pessimistic imagination? I think it's because we imagine artificial intelligence in the way we imagine humans, and the intense competition among humans today is still filled with imagination in the future.

Liberation Weekend: I remember there was a scene in a movie where the world was invaded by a zombie virus. The male protagonist broke out of the encirclement and came to a virus research base, where he was injected and automatically infected with typhus. The zombie stopped biting him when he saw him, and he also found a way to save humanity. So, in the end, it was a human flaw that saved humanity.

Nanfan: The reason for the intense competition among the biological tissues of the human body may also be the key to self rescue. Anyway, this is a prerequisite that humans cannot avoid, at least for now.

Stills from the movie "Artificial Intelligence"

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Liberation Weekend: The media reported a news story about a young man using AI to recreate the voice, face, and smile of his deceased grandmother on a screen. This young man can not only "see things and think of people", but also have conversations with him. The AI grandmother will reply to him in his hometown dialect, reminding him to "take care of his body" and asking his father to "drink less alcohol". This is similar to a function undertaken by literature, which is to converse with people from another virtual world. In the past, when you missed someone, you could read their diary and letters, or write some articles to reminisce about the deceased. Now everything has become visual and artificial intelligence.

Nanfan: In the past, humans were full of imagination about the world of the dead, but modern society has already demonized it. I and the post-2000s generation will also talk about this topic, which is the trendy concept of "metaverse" before. In the "metaverse", you can become a great hero who can ride the wind and do anything, which is very different from reading literature, because when reading literary works, you are reading other people's stories, but entering the metaverse, you are the protagonist themselves, and you lead the direction of the story. But here's a question: In this process, if you defeat someone or fall in love with someone, you know they are not people or characters, but a line of code and a bunch of information. What would you think? Will you still be happy?

Liberation weekend: I will be very happy.

Nan Fan: This is our generation gap. But the differences themselves make me find them very interesting. In the past, we were an experiential society where adults could always guide young people, but now the situation is completely different. However, personally, I still need to establish contact with physical individuals. I need imagination, my imagination can go up and down, but I need my imagination to be connected to the real world.

Liberation Weekend: Anything done in the real world must be constrained by social norms, but overcoming anyone and liking anyone in the virtual world is unconstrained. Do you think traditional literary theories are still applicable in such a world?

Nan Fan: Our generation's life is still one yuan. If you encounter setbacks and confusion in the real world, you need to double your efforts to find a way of liberation in the real world and tend towards an ideal life. However, people nowadays can hide in that virtual world. I think these two views are currently at odds.

Liberation Weekend: Many students majoring in Chinese and writing from prestigious universities choose to work as "story architects" in game companies after graduation. Do you think that in the future, first-class literary works can be produced in the virtual world?

Nanfan: This brings us back to the previous question, what is first-class literature? Many first-class literature in the traditional sense have become classic works. The reasons why classic works become classics vary. I once said that becoming a classic includes different timing, location, and people. In ancient times, it was impossible to produce the classic novels of today. This is not only because the language was simple and the communication medium was primitive at that time, but also because simple social relationships could not provide winding plots as the backbone of the novel. In the sense of "timing", the classics of long novels can only be products of modern or contemporary society. The meaning of "geographical advantage" is not difficult to understand: a work usually first receives recognition in a certain regional cultural background, and then wins classic honors and sets foot on the world literary stage.

However, overall, I believe that literature cannot be separated from the experience and experience of "people", their historical feelings, and their irreplaceable feelings of love, pain, and hatred towards their loved ones, and so on. This is exactly what ChatGPT lacks. Can ChatGPT's "algorithm" replicate all the experiences possessed by "people and" - including various "individuals"? If one does not care about the experience and experience of "people", then the honor of first-class literature will be bestowed upon the virtual world.

Screenshots from the movie "Machine Butler"

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Liberation Weekend: Contemporary society is an era of cultural fission, especially for every family. I saw that you have recorded and published the content of the "confrontation" with your daughter, including cartoon comics, machines and humans, animals and plants, campus life, etc. You said this is a dialogue between "front waves" and "back waves", "not to erase the generation gap, but to build bridges on both sides of the generation gap, so that parents and children can move towards each other.".

Nanfan: There is not only a more than thirty year age gap between us, but also a huge cultural distance. She graduated from the Computer Animation program at the Film Academy. Sometimes at home, I am looking at my phone, and she is also looking at her phone. We are looking at completely different content, and our usage is also completely different. This feeling is very peculiar.

For over a hundred years, the gap between generations has rapidly widened, which is a phenomenon in modern times, especially since modern times. My child's concerns are very different from mine, and my concerns are also very different from those of my parents. My father and grandfather are also very different. My grandfather was an entrepreneur, and my father went to Shanghai to study, which happened to be at Daxia University, the predecessor of East China Normal University. When I went to East China Normal University for graduate studies, I never knew that there was still this connection among my family elders. My parents don't care much about my studies or going to the countryside. When I was about to graduate from high school, my father talked to me once and reassured me to become a farmer. That's all. The experience of communication between one generation and another is decreasing, and the understanding of each other's experiences and thoughts is also decreasing. This does not mean that generation after generation is becoming increasingly impoverished. On the contrary, each generation has better and stronger learning conditions, thus forming its own culture.

Liberation Weekend: At what age have you had the desire to learn about family memories?

Nanfan: It should have been since I was 40 years old. I happened to see a photo taken by my father during his time at Daxia University, which was taken of the Liwa River inside East China Normal University today. At that time, I discovered an interesting intersection between my father's trajectory and mine. Many sons have not taken their fathers seriously, and fathers are just cultural symbols. Of course, although they are not very familiar with their grandparents, the genetic connection cannot be changed. In other words, artificial intelligence and robots do not suffer from these problems. They have no father, no mother, no son, and no daughter. So, artificial intelligence can only imitate without a true family experience, and even without the feeling of rapid expansion from generation to generation.

Liberation Weekend: Like Sun Wukong?

Nanfan: It's also a bit like Nezha. Children can break cultural ties with their parents, but genetics cannot. However, Nezha stripped off his bones and returned his flesh, ultimately using a plant-based body. He achieved a genetic break with his original family.

Liberation Weekend: Thoroughly Cyber.

Screenshots from the movie "Machine Butler"

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Liberation Weekend: At a recent literature incubation and ChatGPT seminar held in Shanghai, some scholars expressed that in previous discussions, creators were prone to falling into the view that "the brain is incomparable" and "emotions cannot be replaced". However, setting aside this arbitrary confidence, humans should develop "another kind of confidence", which is to actively adjust their mentality, believe that they can synchronously update and iterate their knowledge system through learning, including learning the creative method of "human-computer interaction", using artificial intelligence as a smart tool "for my own use", and exploring innovation.

Nanfan: Great idea, I completely agree. However, just as setting "what is first-class good literature", it is also necessary to consider clearly what is "innovation" and its significance. Literature is not about innovating for the sake of innovation. Many times, innovation is precisely because we have entered another historical period, and literature must make new responses, including reproducing another history, generating new emotional and aesthetic ways, using different language of expression - such as from verbal narration to camera language, and so on. What can be further asked is, where did another historical period come from? It is what we have created. How can we further create history by being immersed in it? The response of literature is an effort to further create history. The two form such a complex complementary relationship. The innovation of literature must be considered within this complex relationship in order to form a certain focal point. Artificial intelligence, as a tool, must also be considered within this complex relationship in order to recognize the mutual position of humans and artificial intelligence, and to weave together in an organic historical landscape.

Liberation Weekend: What kind of literature does the next generation need?

Nanfan: Only the next generation can answer on their own.