Chen Shangjun: How did I get to know them? Domestic | Shengshi | Chen Shangjun

There was a poetry competition before, and then there was "Three Thousand Miles in Chang'an". Whether it was a CCTV variety show or a domestic animated blockbuster, they all stimulated Chinese people's memories and imagination of the prosperous era of the Tang Dynasty.

However, "Mencius · Wanzhang Xia" says: "Praise his poems and read his books, but don't know who he is, can you?" Chen Shangjun, director of the Center for Ancient Chinese Literature of Fudan University and a senior professor of liberal arts, who is known as the "registered residence police of the Tang Dynasty", breaks the description of poets or generalizations or fragments in the history of literary studies in his new book "Poets of the Tang Dynasty I Know", stereoscopically observes the conflict between Tang people's political aspirations and literary ideals, family affection and love in a narrow situation, as well as hesitation and progress in distress, to show a real, rich and colorful "circle of friends" of Tang Dynasty poets.

"The Tang Dynasty Poets I Know" by Chen Shangjun at Zhonghua Book Company

"Similar to the adaptation method of" Journey to the West "

Study Room: The hot screening of the movie "Three Thousand Miles in Chang'an" has once again aroused many people's longing and imagination for the prosperous era of the Tang Dynasty.

Chen Shangjun: The adaptation of the movie adopts a style similar to "Journey to the West". Journey to the West has created a bizarre pattern of adapting classic works, where readers or audiences do not care or need to investigate their authenticity. Chang'an 30000 Miles revolves around the life of Gao Shi and tells the story of his friendship with Li Bai, Du Fu, and others, especially between Gao Shi and Li Bai. Actually, their friendship is not deep. I once wrote an article to explore and verify the interaction between the three people.

The interaction between the three can be seen in Du Fu's recollection poems in his later years. Starting from the first year of the Dali reign of Emperor Daizong, Du Fu was trapped in Kuizhou due to illness and wrote many poems reminiscing about the past. Among them, two of them mentioned his old experiences of traveling with Li Bai and Gao Shi, named "Regret" and "Journey to the Past". At this time, both Li Bai and Gao Shi had passed away. Therefore, these two poems have no utilitarian purpose, but after experiencing a decade of earth shattering turmoil, Du Fu had to settle down and revisit the past, with a unique flavor in his heart.

The three of them are indeed attracted to each other in terms of literary achievements, but their differences in life pursuits and personalities often lead to debates. Among the three, Du Fu was a worldly person who was willing to be a refined and obedient official; Li Bai was born, and his main purpose of staying here and traveling with him was to wait for the acceptance of the Tao; Gao Shi is a bloody man with a strong purpose for life, unwilling to be relegated to the lower class, and even more disdainful of appearing hidden in the world. Li Bai and Gao Shi had vastly different values, and after traveling together on this occasion, they never met again, so they did not have much interaction with each other. On the contrary, it was Du Fu and Gao Shi who, after experiencing the ups and downs of the eunuch sea, gradually underwent significant changes in their views on each other, adding a sense of empathy.

The emotional expression of poets varies due to their own life experiences and literary habits, coupled with scattered poems and obscure meanings. Based on the work of poetry and poets, it is highly academic, and as scholars, it is difficult to explain it to screenwriters and the general public.

Study Room: By academic standards, there are many parts in this movie that do not match historical facts, but why is it still so popular?

Chen Shangjun: I can't explain this clearly. Just like the popular trend of "digging and digging in a small garden" this year, it is a phenomenon of universal childlike expression. "Three Thousand Miles in Chang'an" also embodies the social and cultural characteristics of the Tang Dynasty in Chang'an as a microcosm of childlike expression. When children watch movies, they find that these Tang poems are all memorized by themselves, and they will follow suit, thus gaining a lot of fun; The names of the poets I have read in textbooks have become animated images, and seeing how they speak and live also makes them very excited.

However, it is not clear in a few words what the overall social landscape of the Tang Dynasty was like. For example, what will Li Bai and Du Fu talk about when they meet? They will definitely comment on the past and present, discuss the techniques of poetry creation, which we can understand; But can you imagine them mercilessly criticizing or even arguing with each other? At the level of Li and Du, they both have high morale and rarely allow each other. They cherish each other, but each has their own reserved and reserved qualities, and will not exaggerate each other without principles. These are unimaginable for us today.

"Seemingly romantic, but actually very sad"

Study Room: Not only are the relationships between poets different from those in movies, but is the real Tang Dynasty also different from the open and prosperous era we imagine?

Chen Shangjun: It's completely different. The well-known phrase by Cui Hu, "I don't know where my face is going, but my peach blossoms still smile in the spring breeze." It may seem romantic, but in fact, returning to me as a woman is a special kind of love, and I don't like to tie a knot. The status of a woman with a peach blossom like face is very humble. According to the Tang Dynasty law, scholars and commoners were clearly distinguished, and they were not allowed to intermarry with the maidservants in the family. People often believe that Bai Juyi is a kind of human love, but upon closer reading of his poetry, it can be found that he has many romantic affairs but rarely engages in genuine emotions. The relationship between Cui Hu and the "peach blossom" woman is not the kind of love that leads to marriage as we imagine, and it is different from the values of modern people. Of course, as Professor Shen Zufen said during his lecture on Song poetry, the marriage of medieval scholars was a sacrifice and inheritance for their families, and love often manifested beyond marriage.

There are also exceptions. For example, there is an article titled "Ouyang Zhan's Life and Death Love" in "The Tang Dynasty Poets I Know". Ouyang Zhan was a participant in the Tang Dynasty's ancient literature movement and the first person to become a jinshi in central Fujian. However, he passed away only eight or nine years after his passing, failing to fully demonstrate his literary and political talents. Han Yu wrote "The Lament of Ouyang Sheng", praising him for "being filial to his parents, benevolent to his wife, and sincere to his friends", almost achieving moral perfection. However, according to contemporaries, during his travels to Taiyuan, Ouyang Zhan had a private affair with an official prostitute, which could not be disclosed to the public. When he had the ability to invite this woman, she had already passed away due to illness. Ouyang Zhan was so emotional that he fell into a coma for several days and died of illness. Han Yu's article may seem to cover up for his friends.

In Tang Dynasty society, especially among the upper class aristocrats, marriage emphasized the importance of matching families. Therefore, when reading the touching love stories in Tang Dynasty legends today, the female protagonists are rarely the main characters. In ancient China, many literati showed their morality to others, and there were very few who could sacrifice themselves for love. Ouyang Zhan's uniqueness at that time lies in this.

"Vivid twists and turns without making any fiction"

Shangshu Fang: You have always been committed to serious academic research, and "The Tang Dynasty Poets I Know" seems to be your first popular reading material for the public. How did you turn to such writing?

Chen Shangjun: There is a great deal of chance in the writing of this book. For over a decade, I have been dedicated to the compilation and organization of the entire Tang Dynasty poetry, independently compiling 1200 volumes of the Complete Compilation of Tang and Five Dynasties Poetry, as well as the initial draft of 25 volumes of the Supplementary Compilation, totaling 13 million words. This kind of work is very difficult, and in the process, I also need some leisure time. These articles are written by Yiqing in my spare time. I once told the editor that writing these articles is not about money or fame, but I hope to write more and preserve some things.

As it is aimed at the general public, the article must be clear and concise, with twists and turns that are vivid. However, it cannot be fictional, and there can be associations and self judgment, but it cannot be arbitrary or irrelevant. This is a fundamental principle that I have established for myself that must be followed. Fortunately, I have accumulated over 40 years of literature review and can basically approach the historical truth as closely as possible, restoring the poet's true life journey and unique personality traits.

What specific writing requirements need to be implemented to achieve this principle in the study?

Chen Shangjun: I have three persistences. Firstly, adhere to comprehensive possession and carefully read literature and texts; Secondly, adhere to the position of integrating literature and history; Thirdly, adhere to the position of modern biographical literature.

Comprehensively possessing and carefully reading literature and texts means fully utilizing the achievements of previous research, including those of contemporary scholars and my own accumulated information. In recent years, many scholars have called for the importance of classics and texts, and I fully agree. However, only a very small number of works in the classics have gained widespread recognition upon publication, such as Li Bai's "Difficulty on the Shu Road" and Bai Juyi's "Song of Everlasting Sorrow". Most of them have gradually become classics in the reading, appreciation, and drafting of later generations, and there is often a huge difference between their understanding and the author's own original intention. Reading a work in isolation will certainly give you partial understanding, but if you read all the works together, you will have a deeper understanding.

The stance of integrating literature and history is upheld because the world is inherently interdisciplinary, and every era in which people live has its own uniqueness. How people survive, think, and express themselves in this era is sometimes inconvenient and difficult to understand in a single article. You must not understand Tang Dynasty society as a society full of poetry. On the contrary, Tang Dynasty was a highly hierarchical society, with a clear distinction between the elite and commoners. Only by understanding the real living environment of Tang people can we truly understand Tang poetry. In Du Fu's poem "Ode to Five Hundred Words from Beijing to Fengxian County", it is written: "Life is often free from rent and taxes, and the name is not subject to military expedition. The traces are still sour and bitter, and ordinary people are fixed in disdain. Meditation on the unemployed is due to the longing for distant soldiers. Worried about the end of Zhongnan, the cave cannot be dug up." Du Fu felt that as a special social class, there was no need to pay taxes or serve in the military, and life was still so bad. How should those at the bottom of society who worked in agriculture or the military survive? So, at the end of the poem, Du Fu sighed, "Worry ends in Zhongnan, and the cave cannot be cleared." He bluntly stated that social contradictions have intensified to the point where they are about to erupt. The suffering of Du Fu is not the same as that of the common people, but this sentence spoken by Du Fu is truly remarkable.

Chen Shangjun, Director of the Center for Ancient Chinese Literature at Fudan University and Senior Professor of Humanities

Adhering to the position of modern biographical literature is influenced by my mentor, Mr. Zhu Dongrun. Mr. Zhu believes that the characteristic of British biographical literature is to truthfully, comprehensively, and vividly depict the life experiences and achievements of the biographer. In the classical period of England, such works were accompanied by extremely heavy literature and complex identification. When I was young, although I aspired to it, my talent was not strong enough. In addition, I have been struggling with Tang poetry proofreading for nearly a decade, making it difficult for me to concentrate my energy and time on governing a family. In recent years, in the process of organizing and compiling literature, it seems that I have gradually developed this ability. I hope to use the writing of "The Tang Dynasty Poets I Know" to integrate Tang people and Tang poetry, showcase the multifaceted nature of characters, and strive to provide some insights from the repeated comparison of reliable literature.

"Intended to 'want to see the person'"

Shangshu: The title of the book is "The Tang Dynasty Poets I Know". The Tang Dynasty dates back more than a thousand years. How do you get to know them?

Chen Shangjun: "The Tang Dynasty poets I know" means my understanding of Tang Dynasty poets. Reversing the word order is to make a special impression on people. In current words, it seems a bit "silly and cute". The Tang Dynasty dates back over a thousand years, and in reality, it is impossible for us to know those poets. However, at the beginning of my writing, I had a question breaking passage: "Over 50000 Tang poems, written by nearly 4000 authors, each of whom has been read and proofread five to ten times. Everyone is searching for literature, always knowing the beginning and end. Famous scholars are well versed in their hearts, and even those who only have a single sentence dare not neglect it. When I wake up in the morning and sleep at night, I sit and rest, lingering in my thoughts. How could I ever forget? Reading their poems reveals their character, and those who know them can better understand their poetry. Han Yu once said, 'I see them in my dreams at night, but my thoughts turn into a faint mist during the day.' This is exactly what I have written today."

Therefore, my intention is to "want to see the person". Although Tang Dynasty poets have passed away for thousands of years, each of them was once a flesh and blood person, and their poetry is also full of seven emotions and six desires. It is a record left by people who are full of joy, anger, sorrow, joy, and life, dedicating all their passion and blood and tears. By studying the works and literature of Tang Dynasty poets, we can restore the true living conditions of the ancients, as if they were people I knew.

Going to the study: "I know them" instantly brought us closer to the Tang people, and in your writing, they are all vivid people. The so-called liveliness has both advantages and disadvantages.

Chen Shangjun: Yes. People nowadays enjoy reading the poems of Li Bai and Du Fu, and they also fall in love with them. It is undeniable that their literary achievements are very high, but if we really meet Li Bai and Du Fu, we may annoy them.

I can responsibly tell you that Li Bai is a person who speaks big without shame, and Du Fu is a person who relies on others and doesn't leave. Li Bai, in our words today, is a typical narcissistic personality. He is completely self-centered, completely introspective, and lacks rational thinking. Today, when you interact with him, you may feel that this person's mind is not quite normal. But genius is often like this.

Du Fu's greatness lies in his ability to write beautiful sentences for the sake of human nature, and his constant use of language that is not surprising. But as a relative and friend of Du Fu, you will be very annoyed with him. As long as he sees a friend who can help him in any aspect, he will take the initiative to find them and still stay at their home. Although this is understandable, after all, he has been living a life of desolation and aimlessness. His famous poem "Ascending the Yueyang Tower" states that "there is no word for family or friends, and old age and illness lead to loneliness." It was written because his brother Du Guan, who had promised to help him, later broke his promise, and he was moved to write it. There is no condemnation in the poem, but we can understand Du Fu's loneliness and helplessness at that time.

"It's a reader, but different from the general public readers"

Going to the study: Reading your book feels like following you through the Tang Dynasty and wandering on the streets of Chang'an. Do you consider yourself a calm observer, or did you integrate into the life and communication with Tang people at the moment of time travel?

Chen Shangjun: My identity is still that of a reader, but it is different from the general public because I have read a considerable amount of literature, almost reading everything from that era. I have a clear understanding of what issues were being discussed, what events occurred, and how they changed and resolved during that era.

Although I have read a lot of books, I try my best to avoid dropping my backpack while writing, making it difficult for readers to read. Moreover, I strive for novelty by presenting new materials and perspectives. For example, in an article titled "The Literary Talent and Life Lost of Gao Pian, a capable minister in a chaotic era," in his later years, Gao Pian defended Yangzhou, and the historical community was quite dissatisfied with him for allowing Huang Chao to cross Huaibei to preserve his strength. I gained a new understanding of Hu Zhenheng after reading his book "Tang Yin Tong Zhang" which exposed a hidden story about the Ganlu Temple ghost in "Guiyuan Bi Tan". He is a poet from the Shence Military family, with political influence in Annam, Tianping, Jiannan, and Jingnan, making him the most famous official of the late Tang Dynasty.

For example, Li Shen, we all know that he wrote "Compassionate Farmers", and children can recite "On the day of hoeing the grain, at noon, sweat drips down the soil.". He was one of the pioneers of the New Yuefu and also the leader of the Niu Li faction. From a political perspective, he is as wicked as an enemy, but if you delve deeper into his life and poetry, you will find that his heart is extremely soft. When Li Shen's elder brother passed away, he wrote a tombstone for him and cursed his sister-in-law severely in the epitaph. He first said, "What a pity, Cui's sister-in-law believes in the witchcraft and does not protect her spiritual hair, which is painful!" Then he said, "Boling is unjust and disobedient, does not run or protect, knows the gods, and will never give up." He cursed his sister-in-law so harshly! But after that, he not only took care of his sister-in-law and raised his nephews and children, but also when his sister-in-law passed away 25 years later, he called him "pure and virtuous in courtesy, elegant and courteous in wife, for 25 years, and gentle and gentle in harmony.". It can be seen that Li Shen was emotional and used to scold, but he still had to manage his food and ensure that he was well fed. There is one more thing, in the struggle between the Niu and Li factions, although Li Shen suffered from external demotion, he still had a tolerant side towards his political enemies. Zhang Youxin, the key figure who led to Li Shen's demotion to Duanzhou, encountered wind and waves while sailing, causing the ship to capsize. This happened to be Li Shen's territory, and Zhang Youxin wrote a long memorial to apologize to Li Shen. Li Shen replied that although I have not forgotten the enmity between you and me for so many years, I still deeply sympathize with your experience. The subtext is: I will try my best to help as much as possible.

A thorough study of Tang Dynasty poets reveals that they all had distinct personality traits. There are many grudges and grudges in life, and the saying goes, "The country is unfortunate, and poets are fortunate. When it comes to the vicissitudes of life, it is easy to write.".

"Doing knowledge is doing human knowledge"

Shangshu: Mr. Chen Yinke wrote a review report for the first volume of Feng Youlan's "History of Chinese Philosophy". There is a sentence in it: "To write about the teachings of the ancients, one should have understanding and sympathy.". Reading "The Tang Dynasty Poets I Know", I feel that you have a heart of compassion and understanding towards these poets.

Chen Shangjun: To study is to study human knowledge, and researchers should have a heart of compassion for humans. Many researchers, including Qian Zhongshu, have been too righteous in their articles when criticizing characters, and some criticisms of poets with low achievements may be a bit excessive. If one cannot see a vivid person in literary research, cannot understand their heart, cannot understand their joy and pain, and is always separated from the research object.

I write my own articles, and sometimes my initial motivation is completely different from what I wrote in the end. In the process of in-depth research, I will develop some insights. For example, I once had an article about a tombstone written by Wang Lufu, a young poet from the late Tang Dynasty. The recorded content was very trivial, telling the story of when I wanted to take the imperial examination, when I went around, and occasionally wrote articles while busy, and so on. The title I initially proposed for this article was "The Obscure Life," but when the article was finally completed, I used the title "His Enterprising and Helpless". In fact, ancient people lived in a real historical environment, and their origins were limited by families of different statuses. Their growth depended on the resources and opportunities that society could provide, and of course, it was also inseparable from their own efforts. It is inevitable to resist the influence of the secular world when pursuing an official career, but how can one solve their livelihood problems without taking office? Various accidents inevitably change a person's life trajectory and literary style.

When I gave a speech at the graduation ceremony of the Chinese Department students at Fudan University this year, I said: first, survival, and second, development. A person living in the world must learn to keep up with the ups and downs of the world, that is, to adapt to society, adapt to the times, adapt to the environment, and coordinate your relationships with others. Everyone's life is not easy, and everyone has their own aspirations, but sometimes these aspirations are incompatible with reality. To achieve the state of "being obedient and standing tall", never lose your scholarly nature, never lose your life pursuit, and pursue noble goals in ordinary life.

That is also why when writing this book, I always insist on integrating literature and history, evaluating characters and works in specific environments, events, and interactions, hoping to make a generally fair evaluation of all poets based on different perspectives.

Going to the study: That is to say, when you evaluate a poet, it is not just based on the artistic level of the work.

Chen Shangjun: Everyone has a different understanding of artistic expression. I have written many poems and poets that others may not be optimistic about, but I believe they are very good.

For example, Liu Youqiu, who assisted Emperor Xuanzong of Tang in launching the Tang Long coup, was suppressed by Yao Chong after entering the prosperous era of Kaiyuan and was demoted to death. Before death, I left behind a poem called "Shuhuai": "My heart is at the end of the hour," and I exhausted my thoughts for this great era; The emperor still cannot tolerate me, as the emperor still cannot tolerate me; I want to resign from my official position and return home, as I am lost in the countryside; "Where does the desire to return go?" But I can no longer find the way back to the past. Reading this poem moved me deeply. This is a person who has suffered political setbacks and made the greatest effort for the royal family. How can a description of his own failure not be touching? This poem spread to Japan during the Tang Dynasty and was selected as a textbook for rural schools during the Song Dynasty. This author has only one poem that has been passed down to this day, which is both resentful and not angry, and has a unique charm.

I often tell my students that when studying Chinese, they need to read from ancient, modern, Chinese, and foreign cultures, integrate them, put people first, and have a better understanding of the psychological changes and feelings of different people from ancient, modern, Chinese, and foreign cultures. They should be able to express nobility and humility in their works, as well as truth and falsehood.

Shangshu: For modern people, what are the benefits of reading Tang poetry from a thousand years ago, understanding the Tang people from a thousand years ago, and the history hidden behind them?

Chen Shangjun: Reading Tang poetry is a lifelong benefit for both adults and children. However, most of the popular and well-known Tang poems were selected for inclusion in children's education textbooks during the Ming and Qing dynasties. These poems are short, concise, and catchy, but they cannot fully reflect the essence of Tang poetry. Of course, for children's enlightenment on Tang poetry, we cannot set too high expectations. Starting from popular texts can also lead one foot into the hall of poetry. However, as one grows older and more experienced, one should read more works that are rich in content and elegant, in order to enhance one's literary taste.