How well Shanghai has done in the small matter of garbage classification? Fudan Professor Mary Harde: You may not be clear about China | Shanghai | Mary Harde
In July 2019, the Shanghai Municipal Regulations on the Management of Domestic Waste were officially implemented. Now, Shanghai's garbage classification has been implemented for 4 years, and how has the effect been?
To answer this question, Mary Harde, a professor in the Department of Environmental Science and Engineering at Fudan University, is one of the most suitable candidates. In 2011, Mary Harde and her family came to Shanghai to teach at Fudan University and led the establishment of a research group on sustainable behavior. So far, she has conducted 10 years of tracking research on garbage classification in Shanghai.
In Mary Harde's view, the Shanghai model of garbage classification has been formed. Deeply cultivating sustainable development research in Shanghai has also resonated with the spirit of this city.
Professor of Environmental Science and Engineering at Fudan University and Professor at Brighton University in the UK; Received the Magnolia Memorial Award in 2016 and the Magnolia Honorary Award in 2021.
"The 'garbage revolution' has a long history."
Looking at the news: The Shanghai Municipal Regulations on the Management of Domestic Waste have been implemented for 4 years. In your opinion, how effective are they?
Mary Harde: Two years ago, I came to the conclusion that based on calculations and research, the effectiveness of garbage classification in Shanghai was successful. Many people don't know what this means, but I think it can be considered excellent. For Shanghai, a super large city with a population of over 20 million, this success is even more commendable. In fact, I also want to be clear: there is not a city or even a small town in the world that can achieve this level of garbage classification in such a short period of time.
Garbage sorting is difficult worldwide. In a small area with only a few dozen households in the center of London, achieving a garbage sorting rate of 30% is considered very good. In the center of San Francisco, achieving a 50% classification rate in a small residential area would make people feel very proud.
Nowadays, in Shanghai, 9000 to 10000 tons of kitchen waste are transported to new destinations every day. This means that more than 70% of kitchen waste will no longer pile up into mountains like before, but will be recycled in some way. Isn't this really remarkable?
Looking at the news: What is the key to success?
Mary Harde: If I tell you the story behind the policy implementation, you should be able to understand why Shanghai has been successful.
As early as 1995, Shanghai began to do some small community pilot projects. At that time, people didn't know exactly what to do, they just gave it a try. Around 2000, some formal garbage classification practices began, and Shanghai, as one of the eight pilot cities in China, began to promote garbage classification. Garbage classification is regarded as a major issue, and people are becoming familiar with the concept of garbage classification and realizing the harm of garbage mountains, which can no longer appear in cities. During this period, people did a lot of work until more and more Shanghai residents began to understand garbage classification, but at that time, the community had not yet participated on a large scale.
Around 2011, Shanghai embarked on a more serious phase, orderly advancing in several key directions and implementing pilot work in 1000 communities. These pilot communities were informed that they could make various attempts, but they must truly take action. The community has been equipped with corresponding garbage removal vehicles, clarifying the transportation process and silently doing a lot of work.
Next, it's waiting for residents to be prepared. Are you really going to do garbage sorting? If not, guess what would happen? We need to start over. By around 2014, the basic conditions had matured, and by 2019, everything was ready. The garbage classification plan for a super large city was now clear. Starting from July 1st of that year, the new system began to be implemented, and you must start taking action. Behind the policy, you may not know how long this process will take or how much effort different people have put in before a command is given.
If we talk about the key to success, I think it's people. The participation of all residents in Shanghai is very high, and the quality of participation is also very high. If residents do not cooperate and there is no effective classification, the subsequent composting facilities will also be in vain. This classification will be ineffective and will also harm the people and their finances.
In the garbage classification experiment in Shanghai, there are two things that left a deep impression on me. One is its social nature, where people are willing to talk about this topic when throwing garbage; Another is the importance of volunteers, who demonstrate to people what to do with a positive and happy attitude, rather than a negative and bossy one. Volunteers often have a remarkable impact on the final outcome of a community's garbage classification.
In addition, the new laws and regulations introduced in 2019 clearly delineate responsibilities and subjects, with some chapters defining the responsibilities of communities and neighborhood committees, some chapters defining the responsibilities of residents, and some defining the responsibilities of different facilities and garbage transfer parties. Once these responsibilities are clearly defined, the mechanism will take effect.
Looking at the news: What advantages or conditions do you think Shanghai has that make it the first city in China to effectively promote garbage classification?
Mary Harde: I've been saying that garbage sorting is a very complex thing. Residents need to put their garbage into the kitchen trash can, take it downstairs, put it in the trash can, and then have it collected by garbage trucks. Depending on the type of garbage, the garbage trucks will go to different places for sorting. There are different factories and facilities on the entire chain, and the government department of a city must arrange all these things, which is very complex.
In this regard, Shanghai has been conducting experiments and constantly learning, discovering errors in the experiments, continuously improving, and attempting to discover some possibilities for success. They are using scientific methods. In addition, they are also asking more experts what they think and what to do. This is a characteristic of Shanghai. Not only in terms of garbage classification, you can also see similar practices in urban planning or traffic management. Such a city would certainly be a role model.
"Small things matter to great civilization"
On the News: Why is garbage sorting so important? Why does it have such a significant impact on citizens, cities, and even the country?
Mary Harde: Everyone can understand how a city is formed: usually starting from a small village, gradually prospering, becoming a town, then developing into a city, and possibly becoming a mega city again. But people may forget that when it was still a village, you could throw garbage into the river, it would flow downstream, and you could continue to fetch water upstream. But when the village becomes a town, this method of garbage disposal becomes infeasible. The water you take upstream comes from the downstream of another town. If you litter near residential areas, the garbage collection area will become larger and larger.
With the development of cities, garbage is also constantly increasing. In many countries, garbage mountains can be seen, which are not stable and cause a lot of harm, affecting the entire ecological environment. We often see examples of garbage mountains, such as the ones near Bogota, Colombia, which began to collapse and invaded residential communities; New York has also accumulated mountains of garbage, so we cannot sit idly by and see the problem of garbage expansion brought about by urban development.
I used to live in the UK, which is an island country, and Shanghai is also located by the sea. Classifying and disposing of garbage from the source, in order to maximize the transformation of waste into treasure and recycling, is the best way to solve the problem of garbage siege and promote resource recycling. Because landfilling pollutes groundwater, while kitchen waste generates gas, which is a greenhouse gas that can cause global warming. And all of this is not the worst, the worst is that with the development of the city, the situation will only get worse and worse.
Looking at the news: With the rapid development of the economy and society, as well as the significant increase in material consumption, will the amount of garbage generated also become a limiting factor for the sustained and healthy development of the economy and society?
Mary Harde: We all know a saying: there is no garbage in the world, only resources that are misplaced. This sentence is the best answer to how garbage classification can improve resource utilization and protect the ecological environment. Among household waste, there are many resources that can be recycled and reused to become resources.
Our kitchen waste is treated and composted on-site through biotechnology, producing 0.6-0.7 tons of organic fertilizer per ton for the production of biogas. You may not need so much coal or so much oil, which can reduce the use of fossil fuels. The kitchen waste in Shanghai can still meet some of the urban power supply needs after being recycled and reused through a complete garbage scientific classification system.
Looking at the news: Garbage sorting may seem like a trivial matter in daily life, but it is related to people's lives and also an important reflection of social civilization level.
Mary Harde: Yes, garbage sorting may seem like a small matter, but it is related to big civilization. It is not only related to daily life, environmental improvement, but also to global green and low-carbon development. However, there are many links and long chains in garbage classification management. If any link is not followed or problems occur, it will affect the overall effect and require efforts from all aspects of society.
"The community has become a testing ground"
Looking at the news: You graduated from a physics major, why did you turn to research on garbage classification?
Mary Harde: I first became interested in garbage classification when I was at Brighton University. The physics I studied at that time was a very linear discipline, for example, we would have some universal laws, and repeated measurements would also yield the same answer. However, after a while, when I was a teacher at Brighton University, I found that people tend to be more inclined to study more practical problems. They will delve into some industries or businesses, which also made me realize that unlike physics, some problems are not linear and do not have so-called universal laws. They are often much more complex. Once I walked into a landfill and talked to a garbage collector, only then did I realize that the garbage proposition was huge and complex.
When I walked into the community and grassroots with doubts again, I realized that garbage sorting is not just a policy issue. The same policy may have completely different effects in different regions, effective in one city, not necessarily in another city. This is different from physics, and we cannot use the same research methods to understand what has happened because it is always changing.
In this field, you will use engineering because there are many equipment and transportation issues here; Garbage classification is a human problem and also involves human psychology. I have found it to be a new research that spans multiple disciplines. So, I began to think about how I could conduct such research. At this point, I was invited to become a professor at Fudan University and began to contemplate and study the key topic of garbage classification. I gradually delved deeper and enjoyed it.
Looking at the news: Your research project at Brighton University has already involved some aspects of garbage classification. What impact has your arrival in China had on your research?
Mary Harde: My biggest motivation for deciding to come to China back then came from Fudan University. Fudan University not only provided me with a lot of research support, but also gave me great research freedom, allowing me to freely pursue my own research interests. Fudan University has high expectations for its teachers. In such an environment, I have been constantly thinking about how to do better.
I began to conduct in-depth community research on garbage classification in Shanghai, conducting surveys and statistics on the household waste collected in the community. But in the eyes of others, this is a foreigner leading a group of young people in "picking up garbage", and many residents feel very curious. Over time, we went there every day and they realized that we were serious and willing to share our current difficulties and perspectives. The community has become a perfect testing ground.
Then I found that in Shanghai, we have many opportunities to cooperate with the Shanghai Municipal Government at the community level, street level, and even district level, and provide them with some information. We are environmental scientists and can provide them with answers using our very cautious scientific methods.
Just as our team achieved results in the research of garbage classification theory, Shanghai was about to launch relevant policies, and we encountered a very perfect opportunity. So our team provided a report to the Shanghai Municipal Government and submitted the three elements identified through research, namely the improvement of facilities and equipment, residents' awareness of the role of garbage classification, and a friendly volunteer interpersonal interaction duty system, which received attention from the municipal government. In addition, we also suggest that the effectiveness of garbage classification should be reported to the society every year, so that residents can understand that individuals can also make important contributions to the city's garbage classification. I am very grateful to the Shanghai Municipal Government for being able to draw on public opinions and listen carefully to the voices of the people.
"The challenge is to achieve more 'balance'"
Looking at the news: Nowadays, the project of garbage classification has been quite effective. It is said that you have also carried out other projects?
Mary Harde: It can be said that garbage sorting is only a small part of the future life of balance in Shanghai, China, and even the world. Our world has many significant problems in this regard, such as imbalances between the rich and the poor, imbalances in economic development and environmental protection, and imbalances between different countries, which have become increasingly severe and have not improved in recent years. So, for the whole world, the real big challenge is how to better balance everything.
What makes me happy is that in Shanghai, I see the changes that have occurred in China over the past decade. China is always thinking about whether we are close to balance and working hard to make changes. Chinese people have not stopped thinking about this issue and are constantly trying.
Looking at the news: What you said about "balance" reminds me of the values of harmony and balance in traditional Chinese culture. The discourse on harmony and balance in traditional Chinese culture is very extensive, covering areas such as individual balance and harmony, harmonious coexistence between people, harmonious unity between people and nature, and peaceful coexistence between countries.
Mary Harde: The harmony and balance advocated in traditional Chinese culture is what this means. The ecological civilization construction and sustainable development concept that China adheres to today are also well balanced. This balanced mindset is a valuable spiritual asset.
Looking at the news: How can we achieve this harmonious and balanced state?
Mary Harde: In order to achieve this harmonious and balanced development state, it is crucial to conduct in-depth research on the needs of all parties. The process of conducting research is not simply distributing questionnaires, but also requires careful exploration and questioning of what people are most concerned about and enjoy in the right way.
My team is developing research methods that are suitable for local China, to "profile" groups with different lifestyle preferences. After we have a better understanding of the living preferences of residents, we can develop corresponding indicators and provide policy recommendations on urban governance to the government. As long as we understand the driving forces behind our behavior, our research has great potential. Scientists should carry out their work based on social development and people's living needs, only in this way can they bring substantial changes to social development.
According to what you said, there is also an imbalance between technology and humanity in the development of technology. What do you think of this?
Mary Harde: This is an area that I am very concerned about because it has not achieved enough balance so far. Many people believe that technology or artificial intelligence can solve all problems, but in reality, as scientists, we need a new science to understand what is important to people. Technology is desirable, but what you need to know more is what people need, rather than trying to use it for any reason.
Taking garbage classification as an example, modern technology can indeed participate in garbage classification. For example, you can build an intelligent garbage sorting station, which can use infrared sensing, robotic arms and other equipment to achieve functions such as whole bag placement of kitchen waste and no need for manual bag breaking; We can build an information-based supervision platform for the entire process of garbage classification, achieving full tracking and traceability of household waste and online identification of garbage quality; We can introduce a sound and light alarm system for garbage classification, and staff can remotely guide residents in garbage classification through cameras and walkie talkies... We can use technology to solve these problems.
But classification always depends on people's behavior, and I don't think technology will be too helpful, nor should we overly rely on technology and ignore the important role of people in it.
"I think Shanghai is a garden"
Looking at the news: In the future, how can we continue to promote Shanghai's success in garbage classification?
Mary Harde: If you don't maintain it, success may naturally disappear. The first thing we need to do is to ensure that Shanghai residents understand how important their garbage classification is. Many people may feel a bit annoyed at times, like someone saying I don't want to clean the room today. But this is completely different. What you do is garbage sorting, which is very important for the environment and cannot be neglected. It is for your children, descendants, and future. This is definitely not an annual task for 2019, 2020, or 2023. We need to form a habit, which your children will continue to do every day in the future. It is what you have done that has opened up the future, and you must continue.
We have indeed heard complaints during the research process, such as the setting of rules for littering at fixed times and locations. Many office workers often work overtime, and this group may miss the time to litter; Some elderly people living in buildings without elevators need to walk down multiple stairs when going out. Can they also litter while going shopping downstairs? This requires community neighborhood committees to coordinate, consider special groups, and try to ensure that everyone's needs are taken care of as much as possible. I think that over time, residents will gradually make garbage sorting a part of their lives and become a habit. At that time, there may be no need for regulations on throwing garbage at designated times and locations.
Secondly, I would like to say that the residents of this city may not be aware of how well Shanghai has done in the small matter of garbage classification. I hope residents have some patience, living in such a city is something to be proud of.
Looking at the news: After living in Shanghai for so many years, how do you feel about Shanghai now?
Mary Harde: I often think of a city as a machine with a transportation system in operation; There is a financial system in operation; There is a management system in operation. But the feeling Shanghai gives me is that it is not a machine, but a garden. There are many gardeners checking if it is beautiful, and where else do you need some trees to provide shade? It will give people a very happy feeling. I usually don't like big cities and I'm not interested in any big cities, but Shanghai makes me feel very comfortable.
Now, I spend 9 months in China every year, only returning to London for family visits during holidays. My current plan is to stay in Shanghai until retirement. Personally, I have fulfilled my original aspiration to contribute to human development and have delved into sustainable development research in Shanghai, which has resonated with the spirit of this city.
What are your expectations for the future of Shanghai?
Mary Harde: I think Shanghai's future is very bright because it has been learning. Sometimes I feel that Shanghai is too strict with myself and always wants to achieve 100%, but in fact, it has already been done very well.
There is an idiom in China called "building nests to attract phoenixes". I think Shanghai has been "building nests" all along, so it is natural to attract "phoenixes" to inhabit.
I also want to tell Shanghai residents that a city can learn and reflect through practice, and continue to learn; You can also become a participant and participate in the learning process of this city, because there is a future hidden here.
