【 Interview 】 Cao Kefan: "If you want to die, you need to live." Step down from reality show | Program | If you want to die, you need to live

Cao Kefan frequently appears on camera.

One part of it was on television. Recently, he hosted the live broadcast evening of the Shanghai International Film and Television Festival on three channels, conducted 9 interviews on "Kefan Listening", and even took some time to do a program in Xinjiang.

The other part is on video websites, where his short videos of eating large intestine had an astonishing number of clicks, even being turned into emojis, including a slip of the tongue from live streaming years ago, which was repeatedly played.

He put a lot of effort into doing TV programs. For example, at a film festival evening, there was originally a segment where the old Japanese director Yoji Yamada was invited to speak on stage, but the old man politely declined. The alternative method is for Cao Kefan to sit in the audience to interview the old gentleman, but in this case, the audience can only see their backs. Cao Kefan discussed with the director's team that he and Mr. Lao would communicate with the audience below the stage, but he must consider the setting of the camera and avoid loud sound.

Those short videos are the result of others putting in effort. Nowadays, many people are flipping through old programs, picking out the eye-catching parts to gain traffic. "Cao Kefan eats large intestine" is like this, and at the 1997 charity gala, he said that Dongfang TV donated 500000 yuan to become 50 yuan, as well as his skits with singer Mao Amin, who frequently laughs, have been widely spread. A friend suggested that Cao Kefan go to defend his rights, but he chose to laugh it off.

36 years ago, Shanghai Television held a college student host competition, and 24-year-old Shanghai Second Medical College student Cao Kefan was able to make it onto the screen. In 1993, Eastern Television Station began broadcasting, and 30-year-old Cao Kefan joined part-time. Two years later, he resigned from his teaching position at Second Medical University and officially became a professional host.

Over the years, Cao Kefan has experienced the development of Shanghai TV simultaneously, and what remains unforgettable to him is the golden age of the 1990s. At that time, there were very few people on Dongfang Television, but everyone had extremely high enthusiasm. Once he and Yuan Ming had lunch with several editors and directors in the office, eating raw fried Mantou and beef vermicelli soup. Someone said that this year is the 50th anniversary of the victory of the Anti Japanese War. Is it possible to hold a commemorative song party? It is better to have a strong moral on the Great Wall. After everyone gossiped, they went together to find the Taiwan leadership. The leadership felt it was feasible and decided to organize it. One director flew to Beijing that afternoon. Not long after, a grand Great Wall Song Festival was broadcasted live on Dongshi, and the audience cheered loudly.

In a sense, Cao Kefan is a symbol of Shanghai Television. In him, one can see the innocence and golden age of the city's television industry. His hosting career has also undergone multiple important transformations with the development of television. At this time point today, how he will transform is also eye-catching.

As a person with a story, where does Cao Kefan's story start? Perhaps "Kefan Listening" is a good starting point, not only because it is a program tailored for him, but also because this year marks his 20th birthday.

Character profile

Cao Kefan: Born on July 27, 1963 in Shanghai, Wuxi, Jiangsu. He graduated from Shanghai Second Medical University with a master's degree in 1991. I started to participate in hosting TV programs as an amateur in 1987. In 1995, I became a full-time host at Oriental Television Station. In 1997, I won the National Broadcasting and Hosting "Golden Microphone Award". Current program host of Shanghai Radio and Television Station and visiting professor at Tongji University.

An interview for a marathon

Gao Yuan: This year marks the 20th anniversary of your hosting of "Kefan Listening". In domestic TV talk shows, such a long lifespan is considered a phenomenon, right?

Cao Kefan: Indeed, they are rare and rare. This program not only lasts for a long time, but also has a high broadcast density. It is a weekly program with 52 episodes per year, and the program team is very small, with only 3 to 5 people.

The direct reason why I wanted to do this program 20 years ago was that a group of cultural elderly people passed away one after another, such as Wu Zuguang, Shi Zhecun, Ying Ruocheng, and others, all left together. That year was also accompanied by the SARS epidemic and the US Iraq war, and my heart was heavy. I wanted to record something as much as possible to leave for future generations.

So I wrote a proposal and handed it over to my boss Teng Junjie. He strongly supports my idea, but does not approve of the column name I have chosen, "Dialogue with the Master.". He finds it difficult to define a "master". Some people are well received, while others may cause controversy. Moreover, the number of "masters" is bound to decrease over time. If they have completed their work for several years, will this program be closed?

Gao Yuan: How did you think of "Kefan Listening"?

Cao Kefan: I struggled with the program name for a long time, but later it was my good friend and Professor Wang Qun from East China Normal University who came up with the idea of "Kefan Listen".

In the Chinese television industry at that time, it was not common to use the host's name to name a column, but this could reflect the host's identity and position, which was conducive to promotion. More importantly, compared to "dialogue", "listening" better reflects the production philosophy of "focusing on guests". This program does not allow the audience to listen to Cao Kefan's incessant chatter. My responsibility is to introduce more exciting stories and life insights from the guests. We later found out that this could be considered the main thread of conversation programs.

Gao Yuan: The name is important, but more importantly, the content. Did the first round of the program go off?

Cao Kefan: Almost hit a "mute cannon". When the Taiwan leadership decided to launch "Kefan Listening", it was less than a month away from its premiere. I am very nervous in my heart, so I can only start with the most familiar cultural elderly. Manga artist Ding Cong has become my first choice. He has a high social reputation, is kind, and he regards me as a "friend who forgets his years".

I dialed his phone and called out "Uncle Xiaoding". Although the old man had just undergone pancreatic resection surgery, he couldn't resist my kind words of persuasion and agreed to the interview. I immediately rushed to Beijing and walked into his "Shanhaiju" house. I noticed that he was noticeably thin, but fortunately he was still in good spirits. When I saw him, I said, "I used to not eat vegetables and was never picky about eating anything, as long as it was meat. Now that I have pancreatitis, I can't eat much meat anymore, but I have become thin. However, the spring of my watch has loosened."

Seeing his humorous words, I was overjoyed and the filming team immediately set up the lighting and cameras. At the beginning of the interview, it was discovered that the old man spoke very slowly, and no matter what he was asked, he had to start from scratch. Madam Shen Jun, whom he referred to as the "parent", was a quick witted person. She interrupted him and said, "Ding Cong, be simple, don't be too verbose!" The old man had to stop and innocently said to me, "I used to speak very well, but now I can only start from scratch and speak halfway through. I can't explain it."

Gao Yuan: How long did the interview last that day?

Cao Kefan: At that time, I lacked interview experience and prepared many complex questions in advance, making "Little Ding Uncle" panting heavily. It wasn't until the interview ended that I realized it had lasted for 5 hours. Fortunately, the old man was not angry and even smiled at me, saying, "Since it's late, why don't we stay and eat?"

I felt guilty and quickly declined. The old man leaned in my ear and whispered, "Parents have a rule that if guests are allowed to eat, they allow me to take a sip of old wine and eat a few pieces of lean meat, and you can help me." After hearing this, my eyes immediately became moist.

Because post production editing takes a lot of time, it was not aired in the first episode. But that interview was precious, and when I went to visit him again, he couldn't name me anymore.

Cao Kefan Interviews Ding Cong

Meeting someone is a real skill

Gao Yuan: I started conducting "high interviews" 8 years ago. Some of the interviewees were very kind, like "Uncle Xiaoding", but others were very individualistic. You must have encountered many difficult interviewees in the past 20 years, right?

Cao Kefan: Most cultured elderly people have personalities, such as Ding Cong, Cheng Shifa, Huang Yongyu, and others who have known me before and are willing to help. But some elderly people are not familiar with me, so it's inevitable that they need to put in some effort.

When I first visited the great painter Ye Qianyu, I was almost kicked out of my house by the old gentleman. Ye Gong claims to be a stubborn man, and his stubborn temper is well-known. And his attitude towards media people is not very friendly, it is said that it was because he had some conflicts with a media company back then. When I went to visit, I was accompanied by a forgetful friend of Ye Gong. However, when he heard that I was the host for the interview, he immediately lost his face and shouted, "I'm sorry, I don't welcome you!" It scared me and made me shiver and blush, unsure of what to do.

Fortunately, I had the help of a familiar senior painter. When Ye Gong learned that I was a good friend of Cheng Shifa, He Youzhi, and Dai Dunbang, and I also brought a handwritten letter from his classmate and close friend, Mr. Shi Jia, his expression immediately became much more kind.

Gao Yuan: The help of the old gentlemen belongs to "helping others", but when it comes to inviting heavyweight guests, more often than not, they still rely on "self-help"?

Cao Kefan: Indeed, relying solely on "his assistance" without "self-help" is definitely not possible.

Many years ago, I went to Beijing to interview cultural relic expert Wang Shixiang. I asked several friends, but he still refused. It's not that he has any objections to me, he just doesn't like to be interviewed. A few days later, I went to the homes of Huang Miaozi and Yu Feng, and happened to mention this matter. Huang Miaozi called Wang Shixiang on the spot and said, "Mr. Cao is my friend and also a friend of Ding Cong. The interview will be quick."

Wang Shixiang asked me to answer the phone, and he asked me, "What do you want to interview?" I was anxious and immediately said, "People say that playing with things leads to despair, but you have played for a lifetime and achieved your goal of playing with things. How did you do this?" A sentence came from the other end of the phone: "Come to my house at 2 pm this afternoon!"

Gao Yuan: Is there anyone more difficult to meet than Wang Shixiang?

Cao Kefan: There are really several of them. For example, in 2006, when the new Suzhou Museum opened, I heard that the design master I.M. Pei was going to visit the venue in person. After communicating with the museum, I rushed over with the filming team. I didn't expect Mr. Bei to insist on not accepting interviews. Although I was helpless, I didn't want to give up, so I followed Mr. Bei every day. Wherever he went, I followed him, maintaining a distance of four or five meters without disturbing him.

After following for three or four days, a tall young man next to Mr. Bei walked up to me and politely asked me, "What are your thoughts on following like this every day?"? I said I am a TV host from Shanghai and would like to do an interview with Mr. Bei. The young man thought expressionlessly for a moment and said, "Mr. Bei will have a visit to the museum tomorrow afternoon. You should wait in the lounge where he must pass by.".

The next day, as expected, at the agreed time, the young man led Mr. Bei into the lounge, and he then went out and closed the door. Mr. Bei was taken aback by the lights and cameras in the room. After all, he had seen the world before, so he sat down and started chatting with me. At the end of the interview, Mr. Bei smiled and shook hands, saying goodbye. When we packed up our equipment and left, we saw Mr. Bei at the corner of the hallway criticizing the young man very seriously in English, to the effect that how could you arrange an interview for me without my consent.

Gao Yuan: I have an impression of that interview. You and I.M. Pei had a full conversation in Shanghai dialect.

Cao Kefan: Because the atmosphere was a bit awkward at first, I suggested speaking Shanghainese. Mr. Bei repeatedly agreed. He lived in Shanghai for several years when he was young, and Shanghainese is better than Mandarin.

Although the interview was limited in time, I.M. Pei happened to be 90 years old that year, which was very meaningful. What's even more interesting is that writer Jin Yucheng later told me that he had the idea of writing a novel in Shanghai after reading this interview, and "The Flowers" began to be brewed.

Cao Kefan Interviews I.M. Pei

Cao Kefan Interviews Huang Yongyu

Strict interviewees

Gao Yuan: After 20 years of working on "Kefan Listening", do you have any interviews that seem to have failed?

Cao Kefan: Of course there is. At first, I mainly focused on being a cultural elder, but later expanded to become a landmark figure in the field of literature and art. Later, because these two types of people became fewer and fewer, I expanded to include experts from all walks of life, cultural and sports stars, and even foreign political figures. This approach, of course, takes into account the ratings and is also to meet the broadcast volume, and there should be no program interruptions.

But also because the types of guests have diversified, I have encountered many more situations than before. Moreover, television programs are mass-produced and do not have the conditions for slow work to produce meticulous work. Inadequate timing, location, and human resources will leave regrets in the programs.

Gao Yuan: When I was conducting an interview, the most uncertain thing was that I didn't do my homework well. Have you ever had a similar situation?

Cao Kefan: I pay great attention to the homework before the interview. The usual process is to identify the guests, and our group's directors or interns will search online for as much information as possible, including video materials. After I received it, I read through all these materials. It would be even better if the guest had a biography. I highlighted the key points with a red pen and finally listed a dozen to 20 questions. This process usually takes several days.

But this is a standardized process, and if encountering unexpected situations, it is easy to encounter problems. For example, a few years ago, one night when I was already asleep, I suddenly received a phone call from the station leader informing me to interview the violin master Parman at noon the next day. I froze in bed for a while, then called the director in the group to inform them. The next morning, I received about ten pages of information, which could only be said to be better than nothing. I took a few quick glances, combined with my accumulated knowledge in classical music, and then rushed into action. During post production editing, the more you watch, the less satisfied you become.

Gao Yuan: Interviewing top celebrities also has a question: will the other party be very demanding in terms of interview time?

Cao Kefan: Not at all. The actual duration of "Kefan Listening" is at least 20 minutes, and our general "film ratio" is 2:1, which means there must be at least 40 minutes of interview materials to make the program more comprehensive. This is not a problem for cultural elders and industry experts, but encountering popular celebrities becomes a luxury.

One year, magician David Copperfield came to China and had to deal with over 30 media outlets in just one day. The agent set a 15 minute rule for each, like cutting a leek. There are also Beckham's wife Victoria, French actress Catherine Deneuve, and others, as agreed, all have 15 minutes, with Korean star Lee Young ae giving even less time. In this situation, even if you are well prepared, you cannot perform well and can only ask the most important questions. Even if you complete the task, the quality can only be like this.

Gao Yuan: If the agreed interview time is too short, you may also worry about yourself or the other party being late, which may result in fewer minutes for the interview?

Cao Kefan: About ten years ago, I made an appointment with Dr. Kissinger through various connections, and he gave me 20 minutes in Beijing. I had planned to go a day earlier, but suddenly received a notice that Italian actress Sofia Roland would be available for an interview in Shanghai at 10 am that day.

Both of these opportunities were very rare, and I decided not to give up on either, so I embarked on a day of speed and passion. Arriving at the hotel in the morning, I was worried that Sophia Roland might be late all the way. Fortunately, she was actually very punctual. As soon as the interview ended, I headed straight to Hongqiao Airport. The flight was very popular and even took off on time. At this point, the car that picked me up from Beijing has already been waiting at the Capital Airport.

But the plane is still in the sky, and I find it impossible to arrive on time. When the plane landed, news came that 90 year old Kissinger had only arrived in Beijing from London that morning and immediately went to participate in the event. He proposed to postpone the afternoon interview by an hour. My pounding heart finally returned to my stomach.

We rushed to the hotel and set up a camera at the elevator entrance where he went downstairs in advance. Kissinger came out of the elevator, leaning on a civilized stick in his hand. As soon as he saw the camera, he immediately raised his hand and threw the stick away. His assistant quickly walked over and said, "Don't use the camera from earlier.". Obviously, he doesn't want people to see his old ways.

Cao Kefan Interviews Kissinger

Gao Yuan: Did you ever feel like you were going to completely smash the pot during an interview?

Cao Kefan: That's an interview with Stephen Chow. Previously, I also knew that Stephen Chow spoke less, so when designing the interview outline, I prepared 40 questions for the first time, which is twice as many as regular guests. I think half a minute for him to answer a question is enough to support the show.

Unexpectedly, he only answered a few words for almost every question, and in less than 15 minutes, he had already answered all 40 questions. At this moment, Stephen Chow blinked and looked at me, as if saying, "If there's no problem, I'll leave." I was so anxious that I even had the heart to jump off a building.

After thinking about it, the personality of the guests varies greatly, and the key is still to rely on the host's control. The interview with Stephen Chow was not done well, mainly due to my inadequate preparation work.

"Bodhisattva Heart" and "Challenging Power"

Gao Yuan: You once said that the host should have a "bodhisattva heart", and my understanding is to be kind to others. How important is this for the host?

Cao Kefan: I have always believed that the key to the success or failure of a host is to have a compassionate heart, which is what we often refer to as the "bodhisattva heart". No matter how superb one's expression skills and logical thinking may be, only with love, kindness, and sincerity can one become a qualified host.

Some hosts like to use a harsh and sharp tone to push the other person to the corner. It seems that only in this way can one showcase their talents. In fact, this simple and crude questioning method will only make the interviewee disgusted and ultimately abandoned by the audience. The truly humanistic host, on the other hand, abandons "sharpness" and takes "warmth", and walks into the hearts of the interviewees with the greatest kindness and enthusiasm.

CCTV host Jing Yidan once said something. She went to interview a mining accident in a small coal mine, and someone recommended interviewing a seven or eight year old girl. At that time, she was carrying a clay jar to deliver food to her father, but his father couldn't come out. From the perspective of the effect, this is certainly highly tragic, but Jing Yidan refused the interview because he did not want to lose the integrity of a journalist for the sake of tears.

Gao Yuan: In the impression of many people, you in "Kefan Listening" are always chatting and laughing with guests. Some people may feel that if guests are treated too gently, will it be difficult to stimulate deep responses and thinking?

Cao Kefan: The overall atmosphere of my interview was indeed good, but not all of it was harmonious. In fact, I often question guests, provided that they are well intentioned.

For example, when interviewing Yue Opera performer Yuan Xuefen, I said to her that in the Yue Opera circle, some people have some opinions about her, thinking that she is particularly "revolutionary" and even a bit "domineering". I asked her if she had heard of it. She smiled and said, "I don't dominate either fame or position, I don't dominate anything. There is always an excess of frankness, maybe not enough respect for others."

However, even so, she still said, "They want me to be more smooth and say that you are not good on the outside and inside? I say that I cannot be round, absolutely not round." Hearing her say this, I couldn't help but joke with her, "Your surname is Yuan, but you are not round at all." The old lady nodded repeatedly and said yes.

Gao Yuan: Have you ever raised deeper questions about the guests?

Cao Kefan: I once questioned the writer Wang Meng, but now looking back, it's a bit like "a newborn calf is not afraid of a tiger.". At that time, Wang Meng, who was in his seventies, published a new novel called "Green Fox", which once again attracted attention. In the interview, I raised several points of dissatisfaction with his new work. For example, his novel themes are relatively single, mainly revolving around anti bureaucracy, with a tendency towards repetition; The description of characters or objects in novels lacks the meticulousness of meticulous painting.

Faced with the aggressiveness of this young man, Wang Meng was somewhat surprised, but he remained calm. For a single theme, he does not shy away from it: "It is very possible that no matter how much a person writes, they actually reflect the most concerned point in their own soul." When it comes to the description of details, he also said, "It is possible." However, he explained that each novel has different characteristics, some pay attention to the description of objects, and some focus more on changes in mentality. In short, "there are coarse and fine." Our dialogue is honest and truthful, which is what is most needed in character interviews.

Gao Yuan: After 20 years of working on "Kefan Listening", do you have a consistent principle or philosophy?

Cao Kefan: This is indeed true. It can be summarized into 8 words, called "refined and vulgar, refined and refined by ordinary people.". Over the years, I have interviewed thousands of guests, a considerable portion of whom are masters and scholars. They have been devoted to their careers throughout their lives, and when it comes to their professions, they speak confidently. However, when it comes to other aspects, they appear somewhat dull, and their interviews are often difficult to listen to and understand. At this point, we need to write articles on "vulgarity", avoid discussing too many difficult and difficult professional topics, and tell more vivid and interesting stories to let the audience experience their unique charm.

When interviewing cultural and sports celebrities, I noticed that most of them come from the bottom and create a humanistic atmosphere in the interview, guiding them to talk about their life insights. This is to try to make celebrity interviews as elegant as possible, even if they may lose some ratings due to subtlety, which is also a reflection of the style of the program. In recent years, there have been many talk shows where everyone is telling stories. Some people tell exciting stories, some tell explicit ones, and some tell subtle ones, each with their own style.

Cao Kefan Interviews Pavarotti

Criticizing "reality shows" only when doing "reality shows"

Gao Yuan: You are relatively gentle in interview programs, while in some reality shows, your attitude is sometimes relatively strict, which is often referred to as a "poisonous tongue" by many. Is this contrast intentional?

Cao Kefan: When I was doing "Go! Good Guy", the audience said I was too strict with the contestants. Later, when I was working on "Top Chef", some people called me "poisonous tongues". This is mainly related to my role positioning in the program. In "Good Guy", I teamed up with Chen Chen, who portrayed her as a big sister in front of the contestants. As I am older, I naturally have to be more serious than her.

In "Top Chef", I went from being a host to a judge, and my identity changed. I wanted to avoid being too friendly and affecting my judgment. So when doing that program, I tried to keep a certain distance from the contestants. The staff sometimes have meals with the contestants, but I basically don't participate, so that when making decisions, I can avoid being influenced by subjective emotions.

Moreover, my personality is quite direct. Since it's a reality show, expressing ideas in a direct way may not be necessarily correct, but at least it's real.

Gao Yuan: I heard that you volunteered for the "reality show" program back then?

Cao Kefan: In 2005, the second season of Hunan TV's "Super Girl" caused a sensation nationwide, marking the official entry of Chinese television into the era of "reality shows". The pressure brought to Shanghai TV media at that time was obvious. So, Oriental TV decided to launch a talent reality show with enough weight called "Go! Good Guy" to compete with "Super Girl" in a mismatch.

After the program was scheduled, the host remained silent for a long time. Especially for male hosts, the leaders have considered many candidates but have been unable to make a decision. At that time, I was not on the list of people to consider because my "Kefan Listening" was only recently launched, and many people believed that I would gradually retire from the literary stage.

But that time was the first and only time in my career that I volunteered to host this program with my superiors. I've been hosting for over 20 years and haven't played reality shows yet. Besides, you haven't found a more suitable candidate, so let me give it a try.

Gao Yuan: How many reality shows have you hosted over the years?

Cao Kefan: Starting from 2006's "Go! Good Guy" and continuing until the second season of 2013's "Top Chef", I hosted a total of 4 7-season reality shows. These programs include